In which I am a poorly educated Progressive who wants to destroy all rights and is the stupidest thing heard on the internet

BEWARE: Long, LOng, LONG conversation with potentially anger-inflaming points of view and conversation. Proceed at your own intellectual risk.
 
So, this is my lovely, flame-causing discussion I had on an anonymous networking site that has become horribly popular lately as the alternative to the space around me about the United States of America. For those who are not friends of the starter of this, I have decided to post it here.

This was started by my friend, whom I will call A for the purpose of this post. (Names have been ommitted for privacy's sake, but the conversation was posted online, so I feel it is fair game.)

A: Mexican Army regularly invades the United States, firing on Americans and holding peace officers at bay! Man I'm not happy! If Obama wants these jerks as American citizens, he can start a war and just conquer them! ((The initial comment that just begged response!))



Me:

A few bad apples can ruin the cider, but not all apples are bad, correct?

Perhaps both sides of the issue need discussed as well, what did you (we, the US) do to piss them off? Unfair treatment? Looking the other way for drug cartels but not those who want to actually come and work? Who do you know who is an immigrant who has benefited your life? Are the peace officers actually being peaceful? Were these people fired upon first? Was there indecency on the part of the US? Few arguments are truly random.

Another question: Would you pass the test? Most American citizens cannot pass the citizenship test.

And WAR doesn't prove who is right, it proves who is left. Perhaps the US needs to be fought and conquered.

And perhaps we just need to learn to look past differences, abolish the country systems, and go back to being our own bands of people.

Or we just need to learn to get along. No?

 

M: Me too! Where do we draw that line without 'insulting those illegals!!!!' GEez!!!!!!!!!!




A: @ Nikki - Thank you hon, I appreciate the good hearted ideal that you are presenting, and I would enjoy simply talking this issue out. That is the issue however, talking and not stepping forward, there needs to be action as well as talk. Arizona has moved into the action stage, and in that they need our support, however we should never stop talking. Many of America's greatest advances have risen out of compromise, which stems from communication. This may again be talked-out and changes may be made, however we all, as American citizens, need to understand that there has already been an effusion of blood. American blood, and Mexican blood, and those who will shed blood cannot always be turned with words, sometimes we must prosecute our argument with lead. For angry or mislead men will not be easily swayed with words, they may not hear our words, they certainly do not respect our words - if they respected our words, they would respect our laws, and respect our rights as Americans.

Illegal aliens in this country do not enjoy our rights, they do not have a right to free speech, nor a speedy trial, they have no protections under our laws, nor should they. The first thing that an illegal alien does by entering our country is to steal, steal into our prosperity, disregarding our laws - which would welcome him with open arms were he to but ask for entrance and citizenship. Today's immigration laws, have at their base, more holes for those who do not have a law-abiding countenance, to slip through than ever before. There is an arrogance in our opposition, that because they are here, on our soil, they deserve the same rights that my father served to protect - this is not the case. These rights, given by God, and framed in the Constitution, are for those who are humble enough to ask for them, and strong enough to stand up and defend those rights - in whatever form that defense takes. This is not a time to shy away from our duty, or to marginalize our position with pretty words, but a time to stand with our fellow Americans and say "Enough!". American communities and citizens are being destroyed, this must not be allowed to continue unabated, we must unfortunately answer the violence and lawlessness in a language that our foe understands. Americans are a tolerant people, however we have been pushed aside, and now someone will have to answer to that transgression, and they may have to answer with their life - should they decide not to listen to our words.

D:

A said it earlier Niki - Illegal is not Race. If they are entering the U.S. Illegally it is a crime. Criminal activity should be punished not Rewarded. Despite the lies the Lamestream Media tells us. Illegal means Crime and Criminals need to be punished. CLEAR?

If entry is made legally = not a crime = no punishment!! Really it is a simple concept.

As far as your comment about the U.S. needing to be Conquered. You obviously are in need of Big Government telling you what to think. That is the most idiotic thing I have read on the Internet. We Americans don't think like that. We Americans (REAL AMERICANS) are indepentant minded; Pioneers willing to take risks to succeed and are most definately not in need of Big Government telling us what to say or think. REAL AMERICANS WILL FIGHT TO THE LAST BREATH TO PROTECT OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FREEDOMS AND DAMM SURE WOULD NOT LET THE U.S.A. GET CONQUERED!!!!!!!!

HONOR BOUND TO DEFEND FREEDOM 

((NOTE: extraneous punctuation and all in capslock. And apparently I am not a "real American."))

S: Wow @ Niki. We are a nation of laws. Like D said. My hispanic family immigrated here and followed the rules to become citizens.

And what did we do to piss them off? Wow. How about they stay in Mexico if we piss them off? We had issues in Miami for a while. And it definitely wasn't a race thing...because the hispanics that live in this city as legal citizens resent illegal immigrants more than nonhispanics. As far as taking the test...I would love for everyone to have to take a test just to vote!

I would love to also be able to go to Home Depot and not get harassed by these people who have no respect for our customs and laws. They are the ones indecent. To stop the harassment, I bought an INS hat and instead of crudely hitting on me, they walk the other way.

And I know people who work on the border and you should probably seek one out and ask what it is like. And yes, let's let the US be conquered. Maybe the Mexican people can do a better job here...seriously, Mexico is such a safe and peaceful nation. Not!

Me: ((Warning, this had to be posted in two posts of response))

Bear with me, this will be long.

Whereas you all have good and perfectly valid points, it seems you misconstrue my intent. The intent was to raise conversation, not to draw fire for proposing ideas that half of which I know are ridiculous.

The nation of laws was not built on God-given rights, but the rights of those who came across the ocean, killed thousands of indigenous peoples, and said they were God-given so they could not be contested, for few will risk heresy to argue that the rights are not God-given. The laws are also dangerous, and not the will of the people in some cases. The Constitution was based on a race of people that they thought were savage, and not God's people in the slightest, the Iroquois Nation. The founding fathers held so dear are murderous white aristocratic men that felt no remorse in killing thousands of individuals (indigenous peoples, those of African descent, etc), and demeaning and enslaving women just to get what they want. And you know what? They themselves were illegal immigrants.

I do wish people needed to know enough to actually vote and take a stand for the US, and have to be able to prove it. But then the government cannot hoodwink people and thus the gov't would not like it unless it restricted the pool to only those 'desirables' that follow that the government itself desires. Also remember: the history books are written by the winners.

Independent minded people will take the laws that are held so dear and think about them, raise questions, and be willing to tear them to shreds in order to look at the validity of any argument.

I don't work on the border. I know I needed a birth certificate taken with me when I was a baby visiting Mexico so the border control would realize my folks weren't smuggling Mexican babies when we came back. I know that 'zealots' will cause all sorts of lead-slinging trouble, but does violence answering violence actually stop the issue? I am not dishonoring the brave people trying to maintain what they were raised to believe. But there is no safe and peaceful nation in Western society. And I don't think many in Eastern societies exist either.

The US is just as fallible as Mexico is. We aren't the most amazing group of people in the world. We commit crimes against other countries all the time. We also have no right to impose our "right way" on others, because perhaps we are not right.

One thing that makes a discussion difficult online is that people can imply whatever tone they wish and it may completely different. People also read these comments with their own preconceived notions, and few will back down from what they themselves believe. There is more people interpreting from their own ideas than clarifying what the other person meant. As I am sure I am absolutely guilty of here.

There are also issues of semantics and point of view. I may say that the US was slaughtering millions in another country to force our ideals on them, another may say the US was defending its ideals and rights while saving another nation. In both cases millions may be dead, but one reason is more accepted than another. Language is a funny thing, isn't it? Especially when we cannot actually know the others' body language and tone.

By the way, feel free to fire on me, flame me, and point out other things you think are faulty in my logic. I enjoy these types of discussions because only after stripping away everything, after questioning and poking holes in arguments, after questioning our own values and why they are important will we be able to actually understand ourselves and be able to focus more clearly on what lies before us and what must be done. I will be pleased to continue this hot discussion, if people would like to take it to the messages and off of A's status.

A, everyone else, thank you for listening and I look forward to your judgement. You have been very patient if you have read all of this.

I-kush-iwa.  ((Translation from Native: "The way it is"))

 

T: Right on, S. I got to grow up with freedom-loving Cubanos that weren't looking for a handout. They added to FL, didn't subtract from it. No comparison with what the Southwest is facing.     

When it came time to form this country, there were many that wanted all people free. If you sat down and actually read the federalist papers, there was a deep shame on some that that and other issues couldn't be won. It is also ridiculous to say what you did about our founding fathers. After reading them and studying their words, they framed "rights" perfectly. IT is very clear when nonproperty holders and black men were allowed to vote....it wasn't a right to give, it was the denial to vote that was removed. They set up our laws for these things to happen.

What is so offensive to ask for people to follow our rules? Seriously, what? When I visited Egypt, I covered my bare naked arms in the heat, because their culture didn't approve. Big woop! It is called respect! And LOL, try to go work in Mexico like they do here. It is unbelievable that many don't see the hypocrisy or decry there very strict rules regarding immigration and outright murder of those coming up from the south of their country. As for profiling...shoot, I have med look and 50% of the time I get "randomly" pulled aside by TSA. I let them do my thing, show my passport, thank them for doing their job and move on.

And my opinion of the US is far from yours. I think we are a great country. One of the reason many try to get in. And many who do so with the intention of becoming a true citizen, embrace our values, and are typically more patriotic. I feel immense pride when looking at all the memorials all over Europe showing gratitude because we went and spread our "ideals". I'm sure somewhere out there, there is much gratitude for our intelligence uncovering very unsavory plots...I have one who goes to my church and our country and our "ideals" are working on a worldwide sting concerning child trafficking, child molestation, and child sacrifices.

I love visiting the church in St Augustine where my Minorcan ancestors found against the chains of slavery and were considered original founders of that city. There is this statue that honors them and two of the names are from my family. I can spend hours in DC. Our history is rich and while there were a few flawed people, flawed decisions, we always righted things. Read Flyboys, it gives an excellent breakdown where America was wrong in following Great Briton's ambitions of colonizing the world. Did it erase my feelings of love and respect for my country, no!

As an independent minded person, I choose to read a lot. I choose to ask questions. I can handle fair questions and criticism about this country. I've worked with foreigners and respect their criticism. It is always interesting when I hear them comment that America wears her issues on her sleeve. They were actually shocked at the lack of hatred and racism we are portrayed as having compared to what they hear. Many would do anything to come here permanently.

BTW, I was in Phoenix the week ICE did their huge sting. They seemed to know who they were going after. It wasn't random like people think. They do not have that manpower. A lot of the tips come from fed up citizens who pay taxes and/or have been victims. 

D: Nikki true the Europeans who came over believed they were better than everyone else and committed some attrocities. If you however read the text of the constitution you will realize the First European Americans were briliant. Though they mis-interpreted their own words. OUR GOD-GIVEN rights aply to all Humans who are citizens of the U.S.A.

Yes atrocities were committed. No denial. We do not have a clean History. But, we are still the most free Nation in the World. That is for now, since you and the rest of the Progressives would change that. The more power the Federal Government Takes the Less Civil Rights we Citizens will have. Arizona is just exercising it's Constitutional Right to defend it's own citizens. The States have rights too. Part of that document you apparently have not read; Nikki.

HONOR BOUND TO DEFEND FREEDOM  

Me: Hmm... "In the messages" didn't happen very well.

To address the issues, yes, our forefathers and foremothers did amazing things. I also do know that states have MORE power than the federal government the way our nation was set up. I know the citizen has more power than she or he realizes and that a state can overrule a federal law or ruling within their own state. I have not read the constitution or amendments in a few years, admittedly. That was almost four years ago in High School.

I admittedly never have been told America wears her issues on her sleeves. I do know how little regard some countries have for us, unfortunately, and how our ideals and legal systems have fallen in other countries to more ruin and caused more strife. There have also been places where it succeeds, yes, but the places it failed go largely ignored. And we have made some great enemies with our 'ideals'.

As for being a Progressive, I guess I am. However, I don't think the Federal Gov't should have more power. If anything it should have far less. I don't think we should be more restricted and in fact am very against restrictive legislature on who can live where, who can marry whom, and such issues. Pray, don't lump me in with Progressive people who think that we need more restrictions.

I would, however, like to see a drastic change in system. It is rather well crafted and was well-intended: to escape what existed in Europe. However, there are systemic issues that could use resolve and improvement. As in any system. There are no perfect systems and it is very arrogant to say ours is so amazing that it doesn't need drastic reform. Isn't this why Andrew posts such difficult, little-known, hushed-hushed, incredulously-met and very outrageous issues (supposedly, I always thought them interesting to think on) in his statuses and updates? We are still a baby nation and as such need to be able to grow and change. 300 years is still very young.

Yes, we are more free than other countries. Freedom is also contingent on restrictions. The more restrictions exist in society, the more 'freedom' can be had by having fewer than somebody else. Before there were such restrictions, there were no thoughts of what freedom was. We were all 'free'.

i-kush-iwa.

I understand all of your points. I also understand a bit more by them about each of you. Perhaps this conversation could be taken elsewhere, however, as this status is just that, and not a discussion board.

Thank you all for your patience and I would love to continue this in a discussion board or in the messages.

T: Nikki, read the Constitution again. Public schools do a horrible job of studying it. I would suggest you visit the Heritage Foundation website. 

Me: T, thank you for the suggestion. I would love to discuss my all-girls Catholic College Preparatory School education and the website with you in a message at a later time.

There are many MANY things wrong with this. To start.... I wonder if they have read the Constitution and if they know how much of their own interpretation they are reading into it.  Since when is having an opinion being "Progressive"? And since when did having not read the constitution in very long made my education a horrible public school one? And why does thinking the US drastically needs reformed (and possibly taken over so they remember humility and what they actually stand for) make me want to destroy all rights? And how am I the stupidest thing heard on the internet? More intelligent people would know better. Also, who is funding that website?

Oh, so afterwards, this became my status on the unnamed book of online faces:

is apparently a progressive who wants to eliminate all freedom, according to a person with whom I was discussing the US. Too bad language, tone, and understanding kind of fail on the intenet.... in other news, yesterday turned out pretty okay....-----> AND I have a question: Who fears the turning in of theses more? The... students or the professors who have to read them all and grade them?<------

 And these are the responses

 A (from the initial conversation):  Students, definately. And I know you're not progressive, that was an inapporiate comment by someone who does not know anything about you or your family! Don't take FB personally.

Me:

Oh, I wasn't taking it personally in the least. I was highly amused.

I know that I am definitely younger than most of the people discussing that item, and am definitely only a university student still. I guess they were upset that an American doesn't like how the American system is running. I found it quite stimulating conversation, unfortunately I read some definite anger in some of the comments and a sense of "flaming" my opinions. However, as I stated, that is in my interpretation not necessarily their words. I was definitely calm and in discussion-mode when all of my comments were typed.

Sorry it took over your status, A! At least it is an interesting conversation, no?

A: Lots of fun! And thanks for your contributions, we need differing opinions to teach us tolerance, as the Lord taught us!

Me:

That reminds me of what happened at a retreat.

An elder told me "You are so outspoken!" I felt bad and apologized, but then he said, "No, thank you! We need people to be outspoken in the world to say 'what about this?' or 'Well, how about that?' Keep it up."

That really surprised me. Many people are frustrated when I am outspoken and look down on the personality trait as a grievous flaw.

Glad you enjoyed the conversation. :)

C (not part of the original conversation): That's OK, Nikki... I enjoyed the conversation immensely. And I believe that it's VERY American to question the Status Quo, and to question other people's opinion. The art of debating and arguing (in the true sense of ARGUING a topic) is a lost art.
People get too hung up on a certain belief and think that, just because you bring up a differing view, you are challenging them or belittling them. Obviously, you have re-discovered that art, and know the difference between an argument/debate and a conflicted/aggressive stance. Congrats on that. I love you and keep it up. I am more than willing to argue and debate with you on many different topics any time, and always with respect and love in my heart, no matter how much we might disagree. 

Me: Thank you Mama C! :)

Thank you both for understanding. I am finding outside of my CLA bubble people find me too aggressive, too outspoken, and VERY opinionated. I am glad that some people can see past that very abrupt impression and see that I am just curious and wanna debate/discuss things.

I thoroughly blame and thank my professors for that, who told me to question everything, even what they say. (But it is hard to question questioning everything... gets tiring.) Especially the Prof. who told me that we need to tear everything apart, bare our core values and discover WHY we value them, see if then we still value them, and be prepared to be torn to shreds in order to actually understand and truly discuss anything. However, if you understand fully what you believe and why, I guess you never really get torn to shreds, do you? 

So this is where you get confused, I bet. Okay, not everything happened in a linear fashion. The coming status happened right after T's comment, the other status was posted about 8 to 9 hours before amidst the conversation. 

So my following status was this: 

Oh, this is hilarious. Now I am a poorly educated student for my horrible "public school" education. Haahaa. These people are hoots! :) ---> And has a terrible desire for sushi. <-----

 And was followed by these amazing responses:

Xis:

...I don't think those people know what Progressivism is. And I'm not entirely convinced they've really read the Constitution. (( I know you will read this, Xis, and figured you won't care.))

EBean: hey HEY!!! [Mamma C] makes sushi!

So this has been an eventful last few days, with this conversation and the other troubles and woes that effect young adults finishing college. More on college and thesis later. I have wasted too much time on this already.

DISCLAIMER: The commentary in parentheses on the quotes are my own opinions, which may absolutely be contested and argued (which sounds fun). Please read the comments without the obvious slant of my own interpretation (aka, that they were not arguing properly but being defensive and unopen to actual discussion of personal values without feeling attacked). I also have laughed many times about this and am eager to see what you think. THIS IS MY OPINIONATED PIECE, pursue with cautious opinionated-ness of your own.